Posts by Christian guy

310

How I recently handled JWs at my door

by Christian guy in

the jws stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a saturday morning.

i knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation.

so i let them talk while i feigned interest in what they had to say.

Christian guy

Vanderhoven and Besty,

You asked about my JW experience. I was raised a JW. Baptized at 16. Began having various doubts at 22 when 1975 came and went. I wrote several letters to the Society questioning some of their unique teachings. I was told to "wait on Jehovah." I then expressed some of my doubts to members of the congregation. I was called before the elders and told to keep all doubts and questions to myself or I might be didfellowshiped for apostasy. I was also told not to spend any more time alone with my then JW girlfriend. They soon discovered I had not been following any of their instructions.

I was promptly disfellowshiped for "conduct unbecoming a Christian," at which time I was told someone gave a small talk about the dangers of people of the opposite sex spending too much time alone. No mention at all was made about my supposed apostasy, leaving most to assume I was being disfellowshiped for sexual immorality, which was not the case. I protested. I told them I wanted them to make it clear to the congregation exactly why I was disfellowshiped and why I was not. They said they owed me no such consideration. Even though they said I could not be reinstated without recanting my stated doubts about the teachings of the FDS. (I have not attended another JW meeting since.)

I soon began to question and doubt God's inspiration of the Bible, and even the existence of God himself. In the late 80's I was gong through a very difficult time in my life. It is said that when you are at the bottom you have to look up. I did. I decided to thoroughly study the Bible with no one's help but God's and then afterwards definitely decide for myself one way or the other if it was inspired by God. I admit I was then hoping to find reasons to believe. But instead, after an almost three year study, I found more reasons than I had ever been aware of before not to believe. In the early summer of 1991, after spending years studying both the scriptures and a whole lot of ancient history, I was ready to toss the whole thing out.

Then something happened that helped me to make perfect sense out of all the things that had just been bothering me most about the Bible. Something that convinced me beyond all doubt that the God of the Bible, and only the God of the Bible, must have created the universe.

This is a very long story. I have been writing a book about it all for several years. A book I hope will someday help bring many to Christ. This has been a tremendous undertaking which has involved much study, not just of the Bible, Bible history and world history, but also of astronomy, archeology, biology, and anthropology. I hope to finish writing my book sometime in the not too distant future. When I do I believe its contents may even help bring some of the atheists here on JWN to Christ.

310

How I recently handled JWs at my door

by Christian guy in

the jws stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a saturday morning.

i knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation.

so i let them talk while i feigned interest in what they had to say.

Christian guy

In precisely the same way JWs claim that no apostate was ever really a JW and Mormons do the same and so on.

I guess your "and so on" must have included Christ's apostles because John wrote, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." (1 John 2:19)

It's tempting to say that your arrogance belies your claim to be a christian but in fact is does the opposite

You confuse arrogance with confidence.

Why don't you have a browse at ex-christian forum? Are they all just pretending to have been christians?

No. They are not pretending that they were once believers. But there is a big difference between being a believer and being a true Christian. For even "the demons believe, and tremble." (James 2:19)

you will only defend [your beliefs] in an echo chamber where everybody else applauds you.

No, I have always been willing to defend my beliefs to anyone who gives me reason to believe that their minds and hearts are open to finding God. The problem is that so far I have here encountered no such people. All I have here met are a few Christians who are already strong believers, and thus have not challanged my faith, and a lot of people who appear to hate God, his word, and his people. To me this place seems largely to be a den of lions and a nest of scorpions where few Christians understandably want to spend much time.

Going from the Watchtower to Evangelical christianity is to go from one cult to another.

I did not go from the Watchtower to Evangelical Christianity. I went from the Watchtower to Christ.

310

How I recently handled JWs at my door

by Christian guy in

the jws stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a saturday morning.

i knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation.

so i let them talk while i feigned interest in what they had to say.

Christian guy

Coffy, You were never a born again Christian. Because if you were truly born again by the Spirit of God you would not be an unbeliever now. Evidently you were not able to defend the beliefs you once held, as I am now able to able to defend mine. For if you had been you would still hold those beliefs. I have never said I will not defend my beliefs. I have only said I will not defend them to someone who clearly shows (in the case an atheist, by his own admission) that he has no appreciation for sacred things. I have said this in obedience to Jesus Christ's own instructions to Christians. I have in the past sometimes deviated from this policy when a self-described atheist has given me some indication that his mind may still be open to the possibility of the existence of God, and if he has spoken to me with kindness and respect. Your "Christian BOY" comment has convinced me that you are not such a person.

310

How I recently handled JWs at my door

by Christian guy in

the jws stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a saturday morning.

i knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation.

so i let them talk while i feigned interest in what they had to say.

Christian guy

I have sincerely apologized several times for quoting Jesus when he - not I - referred to unbelievers as "swine" and "dogs." (I explained that by using those harsh words he was strongly advising his followers not to waste their time discussing sacred matters with people who they know have no appreciation for sacred things.) Bur none-the-less, I said I was sorry for the remarks I made because I realized they had understandably offended some here. This I did even though those remarks were not specifically directed at any individual.

Yet I am here personally compared to a member of the Taliban, a group which regularly murders young girls and other innocents and does many other terrible things, and I have been offered no apology. Is it any wonder why I recently decided to no longer discuss spiritual things with atheists? For I have found that far too often they seem to enjoy insulting and ridiculing Christians. Just as many unbelievers in ancient Rome are said to have enjoyed watching Christians being fed to the lions. So sad.

310

How I recently handled JWs at my door

by Christian guy in

the jws stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a saturday morning.

i knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation.

so i let them talk while i feigned interest in what they had to say.

Christian guy

iCeltic, You are right. I should not have quoted Christ's words calling unbelievers "swine" and "dogs." I did so only for the purpose of explaining why I decided to no longer spend time arguing the existence of God with hardcore atheists. I said I did so because Christ advised his followers not to discuss sacred things with people who we know have no appreciation for sacred things. But in retrospect, I see now I should have simply followed Christ's advise without actually quoting his exact words, words which I should have known would most likely be offensive to some people here. Sometimes I speak without thinking and type without thinking. This was one of those times. I am sorry. I will be glad to remove those words from my offending post if you would like me to do so.

I know you also were right to object to my saying that I became a believer due to finding what I consider to be strong evidence that the God of the Bible created the universe, and then refusing to share that evidence with everyone here. I realize now those were also inappropriate comments for me to post on this board. If I did not want to share my thoughts with everyone here I should have saved my claims to possess such evidence for private conversations. Again I am sorry for my inappropriate comments.

However, I'm not sure how I can now correct this matter. For the evidence I refer to is quite voluminous and it would take me ages to post all of it here. Also much of it is of a highly technical nature, not easily understood by all. I believe the total weight of all of this evidence is quite convincing to anyone who is willing to believe. (There is of course never enough evidence to convince someone of something that they are not willing to believe.) But I also think that here posting only small parts of this evidence, which is all I would have time to do right now, would probably not be sufficient to convince anyone of anything. And posting such insufficient evidence would only serve to here make me an object of derision. So for now how about we let this whole thing rest, upon the condition that I promise to create and here post a brief synopsis of my alleged evidence for the existence of the Christian God sometime in the near future?

310

How I recently handled JWs at my door

by Christian guy in

the jws stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a saturday morning.

i knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation.

so i let them talk while i feigned interest in what they had to say.

Christian guy

Beautiful. Too bad the JWs have made that name so unattractive to so many people.

310

How I recently handled JWs at my door

by Christian guy in

the jws stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a saturday morning.

i knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation.

so i let them talk while i feigned interest in what they had to say.

Christian guy

I don't see anything in any of the verses that you just cited that conflict with what I have here said. The Good News of the kingdom is now and always has been primarily all about Jesus Christ.

All of the verses that you just cited tell us that Jesus preached the Good news of the kingdom. Well, what did Jesus preach? He primarily preached about himself. Christians recognize Jesus as "the great I am" for this very reason.

A few examples:

John 6:51:" I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;"

John 8:23: And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I AM from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world."

John 8:12: Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I AM the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

John 10:9: "I AM the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

John 10:11: "I AM the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

John 10:36: "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

John 11:25: Jesus said to her, "I AM the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "I AM the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

John 19:2: Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, "Do not write, 'The King of the Jews,' but, 'He said, " I am the King of the Jews ."'"

John 8:24 "If you do not believe that I am , you will die in your sins."

John 10:35,36: "The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me .... I am the Son of God."

"If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors me, of whom you say that He is your God." John 8:54

"And the Father himself, who sent me, has borne witness of me." (John 5:37) "You search the Scriptures. In them you think you have eternal life but they testify of me ." (vs.39)

"If you believed Moses you would believe Me; for he wrote about me ." (vs 46)

Since the kingdom of God is a kingdom that is made up of both its King and his subjects, sometimes when Jesus preached about his kingdom he also talked about the subjects of his kingdom.

In John 15:5 for instance he spoke not just about himself but also about his followers. " I am the vine; you are the branches."

The kindom of God is God's people being ruled by God's Son. The Good News of that kingdom, has always been primarily about the King of that kingdom and all he has done for that kingdom's subjects, whether that Good News was being preached by the King of the kingdom himself or by that kingdom's subjects.

310

How I recently handled JWs at my door

by Christian guy in

the jws stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a saturday morning.

i knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation.

so i let them talk while i feigned interest in what they had to say.

Christian guy

Captain, As I have already stated, in obedience to Christ's instructions, I no longer discuss sacred things with self described atheists. I have spent much very unproductive time doing so in the past. Now, maybe if you described yourself only as an agnostic and told me that your mind was open to the posibility that the God of the Bible created the universe ......

310

How I recently handled JWs at my door

by Christian guy in

the jws stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a saturday morning.

i knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation.

so i let them talk while i feigned interest in what they had to say.

Christian guy

EverApostate, I've done plenty of research. Thank you. I'm sure the Bible we have today, regardless of how it may appear to have come down to us, is exactly the Bible God intended for us now to have. (I see its 70 books as evidence of this fact. Psalms was originally written and compiled as five seperate books and remains so divided in nearly all Bibles today, making our Bibles 70 books. The number 70 is always used in scripture in reference to things that are spiritually complete.)

Blondie, Interesting. It seems like the Watchtower Society tries to present a different picture of itself to people at the door than we know it to be. Your number crunching clearly proved that.

Fernando, Your linked info clearly shows the JWs admit to preaching a different gospel. Very helpful.

Giordano, As I have already stated a couple times, the words swine and dogs were Christ's words not mine. Words which simply referred to people with no appreciation for sacred things. People who he told his followers not to waste their time arguing with. I'm sorry for the offence. So you say this site might contain more unbelievers than believers. I was not aware of that. Don't worry. I'm pretty busy. I don't plan on crashing your party much longer.

Diest, You wrote, " You can continue on thinking that a book from god would encourage slaves to be subservient to their masters rather than overthrowing the system of slavery." Christ said his kingdom was not of this world. He said that if it was, his servants would have fought rather than have him turned over to Ceasar. Christ did not come into this world to end all social injustices. That he will do at his second coming. For the same reason Paul did not encouerage Christians to spend their limited free time trying to reform all of this world's inhumanities. And he certainly did not want them to be violently overthrowing governments which permitted slavery. Rather he encouraged them to spend their time sharing with people, including their slave masters, the Good News of Jesus Christ, which would greatly benefit people both now and eternally not just for the few years we live on this earth.

Jay, Sounds like you are still under the spell of the JWs. Too bad. As I have already clearly shown, they are false teachers. In more ways than I can here count. Jesus said the kingdom of God had drawn near because that kingom (with him as its king and all his followers as its subjects) was to be very soon established. Christ was enthroned as king of that kingdom immediately upon his ascension to heaven, very soon after speaking those words. Jesus Christ was "given all power in heaven and on earth" as soon as he retuned to heaven. (Matt. 28:18) No power remained for him to be given in 1914. So he could not have been enthroned a second time in 1914. Besides, if the kingdom that Jesus referred to was a kingdom that would be established in 1914 how could he have said that it had then drawn near? Unless "near" meant 1,900 years. It did not.

To understand Acts when it tells us that Paul preached the kingdom of God as well as the teachings of Jesus Christ we just have to remember what the kingdom of God is. It is God's people being ruled by God's Son. So when Paul preached the kingdom of God he was urging people to accept Jesus as their king and thereby become a subject of God's kingdom. Simple as that.

SaintLuis, Thanks. Glad to help. It felt good sharing the truth of God's word with JWs. It would have felt much better if I thought something I said got through to them. Sadly, it did not seem to.

310

How I recently handled JWs at my door

by Christian guy in

the jws stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a saturday morning.

i knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation.

so i let them talk while i feigned interest in what they had to say.

Christian guy

Vanderhoven,

It is interesting that no one here has mentioned the other very important way that JWs have changed the Good News. That is that they have added another requirement for salvation. Not only must we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord but we must also accept the Watchtower Society as his "Faithful and Discreet Slave" throgh whom JWs tell us he communicates with mankind exclusively. For us to deny that Christ speaks exclusively through the Watchtower organization, or for that matter for us to disagree with anything they teach, according to the JWs amounts to denying Jesus Christ himself.

I had no opportunity to discuss this perversion of the gospel during my recent meeting with the JWs. Maybe I should have found away to do so. I believe this matter is something you might want to deal with in your book. For it is, after all, the primary doctrine of the JWs and possibly their most disgusting corruption of the Good News of the kingdom.